Discussion:
The future of fortune(6)
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Benno Rice
2017-11-22 16:29:46 UTC
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Hello, all!

With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a discussion about fortune(6).

fortune now defaults to using a fortune file that no longer exists:

$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.

fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries from the still existing freebsd-tips:

$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
-- Dru <***@istar.ca>

fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.

I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we should take:

1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.

2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.

Personally I lean towards the first option.

Thanks,
Benno.
Warner Losh
2017-11-22 16:36:04 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries from
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then
/usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the
default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
(3) Do #1 except replace fortune with a single line shell script:

#!/bin/sh

to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo
"please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"

I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.

Warner
Joshua Armstrong
2017-11-22 16:48:42 UTC
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I also think the tips on login are helpful. I would be in favor of making freebsd-tips the default cookie file (with the possibility of supplying other files as well) and removing the offensive option.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:36 AM
To: Benno Rice
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)
Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips /usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ;
then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi $ fortune freebsd-tips If you
need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
(3) Do #1 except replace fortune with a single line shell script:

#!/bin/sh

to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo "please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"

I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.

Warner
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To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-***@freebsd.org"
Joshua Armstrong
2017-11-22 17:19:08 UTC
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:36 AM
To: Benno Rice
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)
Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips /usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ;
then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi $ fortune freebsd-tips If you
need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
#!/bin/sh
to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo "please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"
I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.
Warner
I also think the tips on login are helpful. I would be in favor of making freebsd-tips the default cookie file (with the possibility of supplying other files as well) and removing the offensive option.

Sorry for top-posting before. I had no idea that MS Outlook was so terrible. :(

-Joshua
Steve Kargl
2017-11-22 17:35:37 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to
have a discussion about fortune(6).
There should have been a discussion before the removal, but
your method prevented an inevitable bikeshed.
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
What is offensive to one person may not offend another person. What
if someone objects to quotes by Dru (sorry Dru looks like you got
picked at random above). The above looks like an attack on people
with memory loss issues (age discrimination?). Will you remove Dru's
quotes?
Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
Create ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and
make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
3) Restore the datfiles. Add a WITHOUT_FORTUNE knob and set it
as the default. This allows an individual to tailor her system
to meet her needs without having others force a politically
correct revisionist history on them.

This will be my one and only post in this bikeshed. Given the
sudden removal of the datfiles without discussion. This appears
to be a perfunctory discussion prior to you pursuing your own
choice.
--
Steve
Benno Rice
2017-11-22 19:22:41 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to
have a discussion about fortune(6).
There should have been a discussion before the removal, but
your method prevented an inevitable bikeshed.
You’re correct in that my intent was to avoid pointless discussion. We’ve got bigger and more fun things to work on than coming up with an editorial policy as to what is or isn’t appropriate in the fortune datfiles.
Post by Steve Kargl
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Feel free to create it. If someone else wants to take editorial responsibility for those files I’m all for it. FreeBSD should not be taking responsibility for them and I don’t wish to take that responsibility either.
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
What is offensive to one person may not offend another person. What
if someone objects to quotes by Dru (sorry Dru looks like you got
picked at random above). The above looks like an attack on people
with memory loss issues (age discrimination?). Will you remove Dru's
quotes?
Nice try. The freebsd-tips collection has some useful stuff which is why I put forward the idea of keeping it. Comments like this are exactly why I got rid of everything else.
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
Create ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Be my guest.
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and
make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
3) Restore the datfiles. Add a WITHOUT_FORTUNE knob and set it
as the default. This allows an individual to tailor her system
to meet her needs without having others force a politically
correct revisionist history on them.
Oh please. If you want the datfiles they’re there in history. If you want to be the one distributing them, go ahead. I’m fairly sure that the availability of quotes regarding, or by, Hitler or anyone else has been diminished by a rounding error or less by us no longer distributing the datfiles. FreeBSD is an operating system, not an encyclopedia.
Post by Steve Kargl
This will be my one and only post in this bikeshed. Given the
sudden removal of the datfiles without discussion. This appears
to be a perfunctory discussion prior to you pursuing your own
choice.
Think of me whatever you want, I’m not fussed. I’m asking with 100% honest intentions what the community wants to do with this tool. If the consensus is for retaining fortune for use with the freebsd-tips datfile then I’m absolutely cool with that.

I made a unilateral decision to remove a potential source of pointless distraction. I could’ve unilaterally removed fortune entirely at that point but I didn’t as the freebsd-tips aspect appears to have actual utility and is something we can easily manage. The other files weren’t. If they’re important to you, please feel free to check out either r325781 (if you want the files) or r325095 (if you want the files with the Hitler quotes) and maintain them yourself.

Cheers,
Benno.
Peter Wemm
2017-11-22 20:34:07 UTC
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Post by Benno Rice
wrote:>
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Feel free to create it. If someone else wants to take editorial
responsibility for those files I’m all for it. FreeBSD should not be taking
responsibility for them and I don’t wish to take that responsibility
either.
If I add up the person-hours expended on fortune related drama over the 22
years I've been involved in the project then I quickly come to the conclusion
that it should go. For as long as I can remember, it has been *the* drama
lightning rod for the project.

With regret, I'm in the 'move to ports' camp on this. The whole thing,
including tips.

However, I'd be in favor of something like having freebsd-tips be offered as a
default post-install package in the installer.
--
Peter Wemm - ***@wemm.org; ***@FreeBSD.org; ***@yahoo-inc.com; KI6FJV
UTF-8: for when a ' or ... just won\342\200\231t do\342\200\246
Johannes Lundberg
2017-11-23 09:16:59 UTC
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Post by Peter Wemm
However, I'd be in favor of something like having freebsd-tips be offered as a
default post-install package in the installer.
I agree with this for freebsd-tips. It should be easier to install
than installing a port and manually add entry to shell config files.
Post by Peter Wemm
--
UTF-8: for when a ' or ... just won\342\200\231t do\342\200\246
Cy Schubert
2017-11-22 17:43:04 UTC
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I'm in favour of removing fortune entirely and replacing it with a shell script. IIRC there's at least one port that uses fortune. Making whatever currently remains of fortune a new port to address any resulting fallout and POLA from its removal from base.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.

Cy Schubert
<***@cschubert.com> or <***@freebsd.org>

---

-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Armstrong
Sent: 22/11/2017 08:51
To: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: The future of fortune(6)

I also think the tips on login are helpful. I would be in favor of making freebsd-tips the default cookie file (with the possibility of supplying other files as well) and removing the offensive option.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:36 AM
To: Benno Rice
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)
Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips /usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ;
then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi $ fortune freebsd-tips If you
need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
(3) Do #1 except replace fortune with a single line shell script:

#!/bin/sh

to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo "please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"

I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.

Warner
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To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-***@freebsd.org"

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Eugene Grosbein
2017-11-22 18:50:46 UTC
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Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
Please leave fortune(6) alone and stop ruining useful enviforment removing
utilities being here long time for no reason.

You forgot that fortune(6) is not limited to files installed with base system
but is very useful with custom local set of fortunes, too.
And leave strfile(8) etc. intact for the same reason, please.

Eugene Grosbein
Kurt Lidl
2017-11-22 20:01:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.

I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.

Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.

-Kurt
Eugene Grosbein
2017-11-22 20:30:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lidl
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
+1

Don't fix what ain't broken.
John Baldwin
2017-11-23 16:38:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
Agreed. I think removing the default datfiles so that someone can maintain
a port is fine, but we should leave freebsd-tips and the tool. When
the -o database was moved out of base we didn't remove the -o option, but
instead extended the tool to work with string files in /usr/local. The
current state is fine. The drama and lost time has always been about the
4BSD datfiles, never about freebsd-tips or the tool itself, so the issue is
resolved.
--
John Baldwin
Warner Losh
2017-11-26 17:11:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Benno Rice
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
Agreed. I think removing the default datfiles so that someone can maintain
a port is fine, but we should leave freebsd-tips and the tool. When
the -o database was moved out of base we didn't remove the -o option, but
instead extended the tool to work with string files in /usr/local. The
current state is fine. The drama and lost time has always been about the
4BSD datfiles, never about freebsd-tips or the tool itself, so the issue is
resolved.
I like this plan. Let's call it consensus and implement.

Warner
Warner Losh
2017-11-26 17:16:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Benno Rice
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage
from the default .login/.profile files.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
Agreed. I think removing the default datfiles so that someone can maintain
a port is fine, but we should leave freebsd-tips and the tool. When
the -o database was moved out of base we didn't remove the -o option, but
instead extended the tool to work with string files in /usr/local. The
current state is fine. The drama and lost time has always been about the
4BSD datfiles, never about freebsd-tips or the tool itself, so the issue is
resolved.
I like this plan. Let's call it consensus and implement.
[[ stupid gmail UI -- hit send too soon ]]

I call it "consensus" but know there's a number of folks on one end of the
spectrum that want it gone completely, and some on the other end that want
the datafile restored. And all sorts of opinions in between. Maybe "rough
consensus" in that it's about the "centroid" of the mass of opinions on the
topic, and a good argument can be made.

I find the "freebsd-tips is useful and makes the system more friendly,"
argument persuasive. I think it would help our brand and user experience to
have it there by default and it is very much the sort of thing that should
be in the base. Having the "fiunny" data files in a port and having the
tool in the base system is a reasonable compromise, though one that will be
revisited with pkg src in the future so if we get it wrong there's a
natural decision point not too far away.

Warner
Ian Lepore
2017-11-26 17:32:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Benno Rice
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage
from the default .login/.profile files.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program.  If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
Agreed.  I think removing the default datfiles so that someone can
maintain
a port is fine, but we should leave freebsd-tips and the tool.  When
the -o database was moved out of base we didn't remove the -o option, but
instead extended the tool to work with string files in /usr/local.  The
current state is fine.  The drama and lost time has always been about the
4BSD datfiles, never about freebsd-tips or the tool itself, so the issue is
resolved.
I like this plan. Let's call it consensus and implement.
[[ stupid gmail UI -- hit send too soon ]]
I call it "consensus" but know there's a number of folks on one end of the
spectrum that want it gone completely, and some on the other end that want
the datafile restored. And all sorts of opinions in between. Maybe "rough
consensus" in that it's about the "centroid" of the mass of opinions on the
topic, and a good argument can be made.
I find the "freebsd-tips is useful and makes the system more friendly,"
argument persuasive. I think it would help our brand and user experience to
have it there by default and it is very much the sort of thing that should
be in the base. Having the "fiunny" data files in a port and having the
tool in the base system is a reasonable compromise, though one that will be
revisited with pkg src in the future so if we get it wrong there's a
natural decision point not too far away.
Warner
I agree that providing freebsd-tips is useful. It also has the nice
side effect of not eliminating the program, so that peoples' shell
startup scripts won't suddenly start failing because it's missing.  I
gather from other comments that the current program already knows to
look in /usr/local for additional files, so having ports that install
just the data files seems like an ideal solution.

I think if the program itself were removed from base, we would need to
provide a script to cover for it to prevent spurious shell startup
failures.  The script would have to be something like how pkg(8) in
base works -- invoke the /usr/local/bin version if it exists, or tell
the user which package to install to restore full functionality.

-- Ian
Mark Linimon
2017-11-22 21:34:12 UTC
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Blue.

mcl
Jim Thompson
2017-11-22 23:31:02 UTC
Reply
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Yes, but… which blue?
Post by Joshua Armstrong
Blue.
mcl
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Marcelo Araujo
2017-11-23 01:26:52 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jim Thompson
Yes, but… which blue?
Post by Joshua Armstrong
Blue.
+1 for Yellow!

Everyday FreeBSD and its community manages to go to a new level. Impressive!

Anyway, Yellow is the true color.
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Joshua Armstrong
mcl
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--
--
Marcelo Araujo (__)***@FreeBSD.org
\\\'',)http://www.FreeBSD.org <http://www.freebsd.org/> \/ \ ^
Power To Server. .\. /_)
Marcelo Araujo
2017-11-23 09:47:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marcelo Araujo
--
Devin
Post by Marcelo Araujo
Post by Jim Thompson
Yes, but… which blue?
Blue.
+1 for Yellow!
Everyday FreeBSD and its community manages to go to a new level.
Impressive!
Post by Marcelo Araujo
Anyway, Yellow is the true color.
Interior decorators will quickly tell you that yellow makes people
nervous. Yellow is certainly not the color :)
Ouch, you are definitely right, +1 for blue. :)
--
--
Marcelo Araujo (__)***@FreeBSD.org
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Power To Server. .\. /_)
Chris H
2017-11-23 02:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in
/usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries from the
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then
/usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we should
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the
default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
HooWee! Here we go again... :)
IMHO There is no reason to have removed the original fortune(6).
Yes. There *were* some (potentially) offensive fortunes. *But* you had
to make a conscious decision to 1) turn that option on. 2) accepting the
knowledge that they *may* be offensive.
Why was there *ever* an issue?!
I pick up a hammer, and place my hand on the kitchen counter. I then raise
the hammer. Taking careful aim, to ensure that when I bring the hammer down
swiftly. It will strike my hand. I've done so *knowing* the outcome.
See any similarities?
If it's to (hopefully) return, and given the proposed option(s).
I'd like to suggest that fortune be re-instated, using FreeBSD tips as the
default. *But* with the option to re-instate the "traditional/classic" fortune(s).
Doesn't that make for a win-win situation? :)

Thanks for listening. :)

--Chris
Post by Benno Rice
Thanks,
Benno.
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2017-11-23 02:48:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris H
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
I'd like to suggest that fortune be re-instated, using FreeBSD tips as the
default.
I also think "traditional/classic" fortune(s) should be left in base, with the .login/.profile default set to freebsd-tips.

Every day the logwatch email provides me with output from fortune. Over the years I've learned of many interesting people, quotes and events this way. I've never been presented output that is even marginally offensive. (actually, I've seen much more offensive content on this mailing list 8-)

If fortune is eliminated from base, IMHO this will be a loss for FreeBSD.

john
Diane Bruce
2017-11-23 03:04:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris H
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
I'd like to suggest that fortune be re-instated, using FreeBSD tips as the
default.
Please no. No no and no. This is the first irritation I remove when
I get a new system up. Next thing I know you'all will give me CLIPPY
flashbacks.

And pink polka dots with blue background. Ooooooo la-la!!

- Diane
--
- ***@FreeBSD.org ***@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
Farhan Khan
2017-11-23 08:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hi all,

I suggest removing fortune(6) from base. It is essentially a tweak and
best left for FreeBSD derivatives (GhostBSD, TrueOS, etc), not something
for base. It seems inappropriate for servers.

In the mean time, I would suggest having it be a symlink to /bin/true or
display a message telling users to remove it. Then remove it entirely in
13-STABLE.

If people want it, have it live on as a port/pkg. The same with games in
general.
Post by Diane Bruce
Post by Chris H
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
I'd like to suggest that fortune be re-instated, using FreeBSD tips as the
default.
Please no. No no and no. This is the first irritation I remove when
I get a new system up. Next thing I know you'all will give me CLIPPY
flashbacks.
And pink polka dots with blue background. Ooooooo la-la!!
- Diane
Jamie Landeg-Jones
2017-11-23 12:15:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farhan Khan
I suggest removing fortune(6) from base. It is essentially a tweak and
best left for FreeBSD derivatives (GhostBSD, TrueOS, etc), not something
for base. It seems inappropriate for servers.
And whilst you're at it, the name "Free"BSD should be changed to something
more professional too, and the silly logos and mascots made more formal -
I'm sure the freebsd foundation can part with lots of generously donated
cash for that. I'm sure daemon imagery offends many.

I assume all the things that used to be under /usr/games should go too?

And don't get me started on the sources! Especially those nasty GNU people
with their rude language in the comments. F'words and everything! Truely
shocking.

Purge purge purge!

(In case the obvious is missed, sarcasm...)

Fortune and others are 'historical' and tiny - and has already been pointed
out, some people use it already with their own data sets.

I see no purpose in removing it. If you're than concerned submit a KNOB
patch, and then those who want to can disable it in src.conf - how about
WITHOUT_STUFF_I_THINK_IS_INAPPROPRIATE=yes

------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head/usr.bin/fortune/ :
r2491 | jkh | 1994-09-04 05:03:31 +0100 (Sun, 04 Sep 1994) | 3 lines
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eugene Grosbein
2017-11-23 15:26:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farhan Khan
Hi all,
I suggest removing fortune(6) from base. It is essentially a tweak and
best left for FreeBSD derivatives (GhostBSD, TrueOS, etc), not something
for base. It seems inappropriate for servers.
fortune(6) is very useful for workstations.
And FreeBSD does very well as workstation.
Please do not dictate how one should use FreeBSD.

Eugene Grosbein
Bob Bishop
2017-11-23 10:01:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Diane Bruce
Post by Chris H
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
I'd like to suggest that fortune be re-instated, using FreeBSD tips as the
default.
Please no. No no and no. This is the first irritation I remove when
I get a new system up. Next thing I know you'all will give me CLIPPY
flashbacks.
+1 and let’s move on to something that matters.
Post by Diane Bruce
And pink polka dots with blue background. Ooooooo la-la!!
Polka dots? Are you out of your mind?
Post by Diane Bruce
- Diane
--
_______________________________________________
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--
Bob Bishop
***@gid.co.uk
f***@johnea.net
2017-11-23 15:31:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by f***@johnea.net
Every day the logwatch email provides me with output from fortune. Over the years I've learned of many interesting people, quotes and events this way. I've never been presented output that is even marginally offensive. (actually, I've seen much more offensive content on this mailing list 8-)
--------------------- Fortune Begin ------------------------

While anyone can admit to themselves they were
wrong, the true test is admission to someone else.


---------------------- Fortune End -------------------------
Chris H
2017-11-23 02:53:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Benno Rice
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to
have a discussion about fortune(6).
There should have been a discussion before the removal, but
your method prevented an inevitable bikeshed.
You’re correct in that my intent was to avoid pointless discussion. We’ve
got bigger and more fun things to work on than coming up with an editorial
policy as to what is or isn’t appropriate in the fortune datfiles.
Post by Steve Kargl
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Feel free to create it. If someone else wants to take editorial
responsibility for those files I’m all for it. FreeBSD should not be taking
responsibility for them and I don’t wish to take that responsibility
either.
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune
No fortunes found in
/usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
Post by Benno Rice
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips
Post by Benno Rice
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then
/usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
What is offensive to one person may not offend another person. What
if someone objects to quotes by Dru (sorry Dru looks like you got
picked at random above). The above looks like an attack on people
with memory loss issues (age discrimination?). Will you remove Dru's
quotes?
Nice try. The freebsd-tips collection has some useful stuff which is why I
put forward the idea of keeping it. Comments like this are exactly why I got
rid of everything else.
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
Create ports/games/bsd-fortune.
Be my guest.
Post by Steve Kargl
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and
make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
3) Restore the datfiles. Add a WITHOUT_FORTUNE knob and set it
as the default. This allows an individual to tailor her system
to meet her needs without having others force a politically
correct revisionist history on them.
Oh please. If you want the datfiles they’re there in history. If you want
to be the one distributing them, go ahead. I’m fairly sure that the
availability of quotes regarding, or by, Hitler or anyone else has been
diminished by a rounding error or less by us no longer distributing the
datfiles. FreeBSD is an operating system, not an encyclopedia.
Post by Steve Kargl
This will be my one and only post in this bikeshed. Given the
sudden removal of the datfiles without discussion. This appears
to be a perfunctory discussion prior to you pursuing your own
choice.
Think of me whatever you want, I’m not fussed. I’m asking with 100%
honest intentions what the community wants to do with this tool. If the
consensus is for retaining fortune for use with the freebsd-tips datfile then
I’m absolutely cool with that.
I made a unilateral decision to remove a potential source of pointless
distraction. I could’ve unilaterally removed fortune entirely at that point
but I didn’t as the freebsd-tips aspect appears to have actual utility and
is something we can easily manage. The other files weren’t.
If this is about removing things from FreeBSD that don't offer/provide "utility".
Than you *should* have removed /usr/games entirely. Let's *actually* be
"completely honest" about all this.

I think I'm done here. Sorry. :(
Post by Benno Rice
If they’re
important to you, please feel free to check out either r325781 (if you want
the files) or r325095 (if you want the files with the Hitler quotes) and
maintain them yourself.
Cheers,
Benno.
--Chris
Jan Knepper
2017-11-23 12:16:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris H
If this is about removing things from FreeBSD that don't offer/provide "utility".
Than you *should* have removed /usr/games entirely. Let's *actually* be
"completely honest" about all this.
I think I'm done here. Sorry. :(
Having used, hosted, patched FreeBSD for ~25 years, I personally like
'fortune', or something alike with 'hits' about the system, shell,
etc... However, I doubt there is a 'system requirement' to have it as
part of base.
I have *never* used 'games', ever that I recall... :-)

I am personally less (really not) concerned about 'offensive' entries.
People throughout history have said and written things that will offend
someone somewhere. In the USA I would think this effectively falls under
the First Amendment. We can say what we want, when we want, as long as
we understand that we are (still!) *responsible* for what we say. As
long as such potential entries are properly accredited to the origin,
even if the entry is potentially offensive we could learn something from
it. (IMHO it is not wrong or bad to be reminded of evil done in history).

Just my 2 cents. Not an invite to discussion...

Jan
Julian H. Stacey
2017-11-24 16:47:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU.
Adrian Chadd
2017-11-24 19:19:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
hi,

Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.

As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.



-adrian
Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU.
_______________________________________________
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Cy Schubert
2017-11-24 19:04:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Yes, the BSD manuals. I should check my 4.4BSD vol 6 when I get home tonight.

I recall playing the pre-BSD adventur game on the IBM mainframe (IIRC MVT, prior to MVS). adventur was written in Fortran at the time. The BSD version was in C.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
This old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
<***@cschubert.com> or <***@freebsd.org>

---

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian H. Stacey
Sent: 24/11/2017 08:48
To: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)

fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU.
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To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-***@freebsd.org"
Julian H. Stacey
2017-11-25 11:54:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Adrian Chadd wrote:
(top posting corrected here)
Post by Adrian Chadd
Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian
I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to
avoid distraction from the point:

Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.

Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU.
Mark Linimon
2017-11-25 16:28:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Contentious commits forced through before discussion, should by
policy be automatically reverted, committers bit suspended
That is not FreeBSD's policy.

AFAIK that has never been FreeBSD's policy.

If it ever does become FreeBSD's policy, I will be (one of many,
I assume) out the door.

Look: AFAICT the only project that is ever going to suit you is one
you run yourself. Then you can make all the rules. There are other
BSDs that run on that model.

I remain here, despite frustrations, *because* FreeBSD doesn't run
on that model.

Does it run well? No: there are human beings involved, so QED.

But it runs better than what it would run by your demands.

tl:dr; if you want to work with people (on this project or any other),
work with them, don't attack. It's self-defeating.

mcl
Ian Lepore
2017-11-25 18:22:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Julian H. Stacey
(top posting corrected here)
Post by Adrian Chadd
Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian
I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to
Commit bits are a privilege.  Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from 
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.
I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to comment on what policy
is, but let me assure you that virtually everything you've ever said on
the subject on the freebsd mailing lists is wrong.  People reading this
thread should not make the mistake of thinking that you are associated
with the project in any way or speak authoratatively about the project
and its policies.

-- Ian
Cy Schubert
2017-11-25 19:18:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <CAJ-Vmo=puH=3+5HbKop3+WzyG35idZa-***@mail.gmail.c
om>
Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible
.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian
I see no reason why fortune(6) cannot be a port. Much of /usr/games (IIRC
that's where it was) has been gutted anyway and not only that but other
more functional parts of 4.4BSD have been culled and are simply gone.

I think the way forward is:

1. Make fortune a port.

2. Whatever was in games and is in ports could be installed through a
bsd-games meta-port.

People should realize that ports are just as valid as base. Not everything
should be in base. This will become truer once base is fully distributed as
packages. A monolithic base is so 1960s. Even the IBM mainframe I worked on
in the 1970s used packages (IBM called them FMIDs). Let's get on with the
1970s and move it to ports/packages.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Post by Adrian Chadd
Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Mun
ich
Post by Julian H. Stacey
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printa
ble.
Post by Julian H. Stacey
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in
EU.
Post by Julian H. Stacey
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Jack L.
2017-11-26 08:22:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
mail.gmail.c
om>
Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable
bible
Post by Adrian Chadd
.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian
I see no reason why fortune(6) cannot be a port. Much of /usr/games (IIRC
that's where it was) has been gutted anyway and not only that but other
more functional parts of 4.4BSD have been culled and are simply gone.
1. Make fortune a port.
2. Whatever was in games and is in ports could be installed through a
bsd-games meta-port.
People should realize that ports are just as valid as base. Not everything
should be in base. This will become truer once base is fully distributed as
packages. A monolithic base is so 1960s. Even the IBM mainframe I worked on
in the 1970s used packages (IBM called them FMIDs). Let's get on with the
1970s and move it to ports/packages.
Yes! I've always been annoyed (in the past) with doing an rm -rf
/usr/games in my new server installs.
Cy Schubert
2017-11-25 22:06:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.
A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.
Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Cy Schubert
2017-11-25 22:16:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.
A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.
Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.
Apologies for the frustration. While taking breaks from putting in new
electrical in this 104 year old house, my extreme frustration at the
plumbing and joists in my way to completing what should be a simple job is
spilling over on list.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Cy Schubert
2017-11-25 23:21:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <CAJ-***@mail.gmail.c
om>
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.
A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.
Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.
Apologies for the frustration. While taking breaks from putting in new
electrical in this 104 year old house, my extreme frustration at the
plumbing and joists in my way to completing what should be a simple job is
spilling over on list.
You and me both.
Mmm lead paint, asbestos and knob/tube wiring tapped infinitely...
Yuck. That is not fun. I should stop complaining and feeling miserable. :\
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Adrian Chadd
2017-11-25 23:39:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
Mmm lead paint, asbestos and knob/tube wiring tapped infinitely...
Yuck. That is not fun. I should stop complaining and feeling miserable. :\
Nah, let it out. There's so much to do.

Wait until I tell you about the carpets that had vinyl flooring
underneath with wood floors under that, with what looks like someone's
old oil fire...



-a
Mark Linimon
2017-11-25 23:42:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adrian Chadd
Wait until I tell you about the carpets that had vinyl flooring
underneath with wood floors under that, with what looks like someone's
old oil fire...
Wow. Not even _my_ house contains such horrors.

Mark "now I have to figure out how my new hot weater heater was badly
installed" Linimon
Julian H. Stacey
2017-11-26 13:48:12 UTC
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Hi Hackers@ & Arch@
Mcl's long held animosity to me distracts. Better to consider ideas
not by author, but on merit or otherwise, & maybe improve them.
Post by Julian H. Stacey
Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
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Cy Schubert
2017-11-26 15:59:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@fire.js.berklix.net>, "Julian H.
Stacey
Post by Julian H. Stacey
Mcl's long held animosity to me distracts. Better to consider ideas
not by author, but on merit or otherwise, & maybe improve them.
I think you might be reading too much into it.

To bring this on topic. Fortune needs to go. The process to remove it has
commenced and will after review be implemented.

Why? Games should be, if anywhere, in ports. Take for example what Red Hat
has done. There are no games in Red Hat 6. Sure you might find some in EPL.
And as of RHEL 7, absolutely nothing. I suspect that they've made the
choice to avoid problems like this. We should do likewise. I would fully
support removal of games from ports as well but I might tolerate them there
-- why if I install gnome or kde do I want to give up MB or GB of precious
disk to games?

This is 2017. I really don't understand why there is so much angst about
this.

Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids play
games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids even see what
fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would have been ashamed had
they seen some of the outputs.

Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports
it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort.

To repeat: To say that mcl has animosity toward you is really unfair.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Post by Julian H. Stacey
Post by Julian H. Stacey
Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munic
h
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printabl
e.
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.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
RW via freebsd-hackers
2017-11-26 16:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:52 -0800
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
and:

$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
Eugene Grosbein
2017-11-26 17:44:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports
it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort.
Please don't mix fortune(6) C code with contents of src/usr.bin/fortune/datfiles.

The code src/usr.bin/fortune/{fortune|strfile} is valuable and independend of exact datfiles
and there is no reason to remove it from the base as we have no alternatives for the task whey solve.
Cy Schubert
2017-11-26 17:11:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@gumby.homeunix.com>, RW via
freebsd-hackers
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:52 -0800
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
Let's take an example, when I was ~ 35 years younger than now.

A buddy of mine had a 3 year old son. His son would insert an MS DOS floppy
disk and power on his XT clone computer. Once booted his 3 year old son
removed the floppy and inserted his favourite game, entered the command on
the command line and started playing. Kids today are much more capable than
my friend's son was so many years ago.

We already have a port that can support it. Someone could repocopy the port
to just install fortune.

It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Cy Schubert
2017-11-26 18:09:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Eugene Grosbein
Post by Cy Schubert
Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports
it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort.
Please don't mix fortune(6) C code with contents of src/usr.bin/fortune/datfi
les.
The code src/usr.bin/fortune/{fortune|strfile} is valuable and independend of
exact datfiles
and there is no reason to remove it from the base as we have no alternatives
for the task whey solve.
Putting my Canadian hat on instead of being my frustrated self today:

I think the way forward is to replace fortune in base with a shell script
to conditionally execute ${LOCALBASE}/bin/fortune and if not found advises
the user to ask their sysadmin to install a fortune port/package.

I have a revision in to do the removal and plan on creating a series of
ports based on bsdgames. However I'm totally willing to let someone else
take the lead on this.

I think this is acceptable.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Julian H. Stacey
2017-11-26 18:56:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:22:50 -0700
Post by Julian H. Stacey
(top posting corrected here)
Post by Adrian Chadd
Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian
I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to
Commit bits are a privilege.  Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from 
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.
I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to comment on what policy
is,
Learn to read. I wrote "Should" twice. I did not specify what policy IS.
but let me assure you
You failed to comprehend, Doubt you can assure.
that virtually everything you've ever said on
the subject on the freebsd mailing lists is wrong.
Subject ? Fortune ? Committer discipline ? Random Other ?
 People reading this
thread should not make the mistake of thinking that you are associated
with the project in any way
...................^^^^^^^^^^

Don't exagerate. I've been with FreeBSD since it existed, on lots
of FreeBSD mail lists, contributed numerous patches. I have a tree
of patches still to contribute, but this sort of noise rather discourages.

More importantly, this sort of meta noise discourages lots of others
you will never hear from, from contributing to lots of projects,
(a generic phenomena observed by many, far wider than FreeBSD).
Numerous friends dont contribute to PD src/ projects cos they know this sort
of meta noise grief they don't need.
or speak authoratatively about the project
and its policies.
I never claimed to be authoritative or hold any FreeBSD office. I
suggested there "Should" be more (professional style) responsibity.
Criticising me personaly for that just distracts attention from a
minority of the less responsible who would need to be more responsible.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
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Mike Karels
2017-11-26 18:32:23 UTC
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I apologize for a belated response to this thread, as well as for prolonging
it. However, I didn't want to respond until I had a chance to review the
thread and the background. Having done that, I am unhappy with how we got
to where we are, and I think discussion has not touched some important
issues.

First, for those who have not seen the original commit message in question,
Remove all fortune datfiles except freebsd-tips.
Humour is a funny thing. What is funny to one person is not funny to all
people. What is insightful to one person is similarly not universal. The
fortune datfiles have been around a long time and have undoubtedly amused
people but it's time to acknowledge their subjective, and in some cases
at least potentially offensive, nature and stop distributing them with the
imprimatur of the FreeBSD project.
If anyone wishes to distribute these via other mechanisms they are welcome to
check them out of history and do so.
MFC after: 2 days
This sounds very much like a pronouncement on behalf of the project, but as
far as I know there was no discussion at all that would make this a formal
decision. Furthermore, the change made the system internally inconsistent,
i.e. it broke things.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
I see no reason that these should be the only two possible options. I see
at least two other reasonable options:

3) Put it back the way that it was.

4) Move the "offensive" datfiles to a port, but leave fortune and at least
freebsd-tips in the system. I note that some of the non -o limericks
are reasonably considered offensive, but I am not aware of problems in, or
complaints about, the main fortunes datfile.

There has been no valid justification, either in the original commit, the
initial email on this thread, or later in the thread, for removal. There
has been general "let's move everything to packages" sentiment. Personally,
I do not understand the goal of moving more of base (or all of it?) into
packages. One criterion mentioned was whether it was required to build
the sytem. That is a poor criterion, as embedded systems are mostly
cross-compiled, and so nothing would be in base by that criterion.
csh and vi are not required to build the system, but seem like things
that should remain in base in any case. If someone wants to explain the
motivation for moving much of the system into packages, please do so (but
in a different thread; or point me to a thread that I have missed).

fortune has been a part of BSD since long before FreeBSD. It is not a
game, and is not installed in /usr/games. It seems to me to be a part
of the BSD heritage, and removing it requires consensus rather than someone's
whim.
HooWee! Here we go again... :)
No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor
complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account,
and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.

Mike
Bill Sorenson
2017-11-27 04:31:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike Karels
No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor
complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account,
and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.
Mike
I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge -
massive difference between words people don't like and someone being
offensive.

I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler
quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I
don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people
don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a
Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or
a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this
is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any
particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really
what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips).

Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've
decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread
hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of
censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the
software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing.
Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because
it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's
feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel
stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open
society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print
detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal.

I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.

-Bill S.
Gerry Weaver
2017-11-27 04:52:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hello All,

Why not just keep fortune and tips in base and push the rest to a package? This way history could be reasonably preserved and you would have to opt in to get the rest.

BTW: I apologize, if someone has already suggested this. I may have missed a few posts.

Thanks,
-G
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sorenson
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 10:31 PM
To: ***@karels.net
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; Benno Rice <***@freebsd.org>; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)
Post by Mike Karels
No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female
professor complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's
account, and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.
Mike
I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge - massive difference between words people don't like and someone being offensive.

I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips).

Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing.
Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal.

I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a substantive improvement.

-Bill S.
_______________________________________________
freebsd-***@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-***@freebsd.org"
Julian Elischer
2017-11-27 14:26:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Sorenson
Post by Mike Karels
No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor
complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account,
and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.
Mike
I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge -
massive difference between words people don't like and someone being
offensive.
I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler
quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I
don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people
don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a
Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or
a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this
is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any
particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really
what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips).
Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've
decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread
hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of
censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the
software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing.
Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because
it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's
feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel
stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open
society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print
detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal.
The fact that something was said by Adolf Hitler doesn't make it
automatically unsuitable for the fortune files.
I'd say that if you think it does, that gives a lot more new
information about you than it does about Adolf Hitler, who we already
know about.
Most of the deleted quotes (to do with Women) are so offensive by
modern standards that I view them as almost satirical, and somewhat
educational.
One or two of them are positively scary in how well they fit to
current politics and I view them as cautionary.. (and certainly should
have stayed).
For those who didn't read them  you can find them in the commit
history now.

The unilateral declaration to be the "arbiter of FreeBSD morals" does
grate with me more than the demise of the data files however.
It's the old "Who elected you king?" line from Monty Python.

Think of the bikesheds that Stalin avoided when he just killed all his
opponents.
I imagine that somewhere in those files was

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this
world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or
all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of
Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from
time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947"

While we are not a democracy, Our desire to remain open leads
unavoidably to some of the same messiness, and we should accept that
as the price of our freedom to feel part of the project. The claim to
avoid a bikeshed (hmm how did that play out for you?) is not an excuse
to work without consultation.
Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.
-Bill S.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
Jonathan Anderson
2017-11-27 15:20:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.
That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.


Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson
***@FreeBSD.org
Mark Linimon
2017-11-27 21:54:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
if we move the datfiles (other than `freebsd-tips`) into ports
Already happened.

mcl
Dieter BSD
2017-11-27 00:54:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
So someone finds a quote of a democratically elected leader offensive.
And now some are attacking fortune with torches and pitchforks.
Let's throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Shall we throw out anything that anyone finds offensive?
I find a lot of things offensive. Here are a few:

Censorship

Low quality products and services
Support for low quality products and services (inthell, microshit, ...)

Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years...

Status reports that do not report progress (or lack thereof)
reducing the number of open PRs.

Replacing a working PR system with bugzilla

Dropping nuclear bombs on innocent civilians

Replacing a working package system with pile of garbage that does not work.
Naming the new pile of garbage that does not work the same as the previous
working system, which then "requires" adding another layer of crap that does
not work.

Cancer

Assuming that everyone has a reliable 24x7 ueberfast Internet connection.

Assuming that https is somehow better than http. It may add a microscopic
amount of security, but also subtracts a far larger amount. It is much
slower, and breaks many things. Often the page will not load at all.
Honoring a request for https is good, but forcing it down everyone's
throat is evil.

Mainboard designers who think that 7 expansion slots should be enough for
anyone. Many can't even count to 7.

Mainboard designers who think that RS-232 is no longer needed.

Mainboard designers who do not understand the necessity for ECC.

Closed source software, including firmware.

Building bike sheds with materials that require paint.
Proper bike sheds are built from things like stone or brick.
Mark Linimon
2017-11-27 01:42:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dieter BSD
Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years...
Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.)

mcl
Chris H
2017-11-27 03:34:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joshua Armstrong
freebsd-hackers
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:52 -0800
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
Let's take an example, when I was ~ 35 years younger than now.
A buddy of mine had a 3 year old son. His son would insert an MS DOS floppy
disk and power on his XT clone computer. Once booted his 3 year old son
removed the floppy and inserted his favourite game, entered the command on
the command line and started playing. Kids today are much more capable than
my friend's son was so many years ago.
We already have a port that can support it. Someone could repocopy the port
to just install fortune.
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who cares if some
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all the Linux
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be "Linux like".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.

I'm done now. :)

--Chris
Post by Joshua Armstrong
--
Cheers,
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Chris H
2017-11-27 03:49:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Benno Rice
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage
from the default .login/.profile files.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
Agreed. I think removing the default datfiles so that someone can
maintain
a port is fine, but we should leave freebsd-tips and the tool. When
the -o database was moved out of base we didn't remove the -o option, but
instead extended the tool to work with string files in /usr/local. The
current state is fine. The drama and lost time has always been about the
4BSD datfiles, never about freebsd-tips or the tool itself, so the issue
is
resolved.
I like this plan. Let's call it consensus and implement.
[[ stupid gmail UI -- hit send too soon ]]
I call it "consensus" but know there's a number of folks on one end of the
spectrum that want it gone completely, and some on the other end that want
the datafile restored. And all sorts of opinions in between. Maybe "rough
consensus" in that it's about the "centroid" of the mass of opinions on the
topic, and a good argument can be made.
I find the "freebsd-tips is useful and makes the system more friendly,"
argument persuasive. I think it would help our brand and user experience to
have it there by default and it is very much the sort of thing that should
be in the base. Having the "fiunny" data files in a port and having the
tool in the base system is a reasonable compromise, though one that will be
revisited with pkg src in the future so if we get it wrong there's a
natural decision point not too far away.
I like the way you proposed this, Warner. :)
While I'm still *firmly* in the "keep the original dataset camp". I think
your proposal seems like the least abrasive, or easiest to swallow. :)
FWIW I think could probably live with this.

Thanks, Warner.

--Chris
Post by Warner Losh
Warner
Cy Schubert
2017-11-27 05:46:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@udns.ultimatedns.net>, "Chris
H" w
Post by Chris H
aid
Post by Joshua Armstrong
freebsd-hackers
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:52 -0800
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
Let's take an example, when I was ~ 35 years younger than now.
A buddy of mine had a 3 year old son. His son would insert an MS DOS floppy
disk and power on his XT clone computer. Once booted his 3 year old son
removed the floppy and inserted his favourite game, entered the command on
the command line and started playing. Kids today are much more capable than
my friend's son was so many years ago.
We already have a port that can support it. Someone could repocopy the port
to just install fortune.
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who cares if some
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all the Linux
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be "Linux lik
e".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.
I'm done now. :)
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably learned that
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and the
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment like ours.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Eugene Grosbein
2017-11-27 12:09:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably learned that
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and the
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment like ours.
fortune/strfile are not "unnecessary software" in a sense of C code.
They present nearly zero cost being working part of the system.
Please leave it alone, we use it.
f***@johnea.net
2017-11-28 22:11:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
This statement is factually incorrect.

It just is not the case.

I've received fortune in email every morning for about 14 years. That's well over 5000 fortunes. I've never seen even vaguely offensive content.

The default settings do not deliver patently offensive content, period.
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
...
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who cares if some
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all the Linux
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be "Linux lik
e".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.
I'm done now. :)
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably learned that
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and the
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment like ours.
I have to agree with the negative reaction to the Red Hat comparison.

Saying that FreeBSD obviously isn't linux doesn't address the concern over this comparison.

If you think fortune is a flame war lightning rod, maybe you haven't heard of systemd?

systemd is a Red Hat product.

There are many different reasons for the controversy over systemd. One of them is that it removes the individuality of adopting distributions, making them more uniform. The corporation in charge of that uniformity being Red Hat.

People don't like the elimination of fortune for the same reason they didn't like the politically-correct-ification of beastie: It makes the OS seem less like something made by individuals for individuals, and more like a polished, "risk and exposure" averse, corporate product. In a word, dehumanized.

johnea
Farhan Khan
2017-11-28 23:34:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
(I write this with a respectful tone in my voice.)

With respect, FreeBSD is an operating system, not a person to be
dehumanized. If you so strongly desire to run fortune, do a quick `pkg
install fortune`. You can continue to utilize this feature as you
please. Problem solved. No one is censoring anyone's speech, just
install it from the packages. It will likely take literally 2 seconds.

Being relatively new to FreeBSD on my servers, I always found fortune by
default as unbecoming of an enterprise-class operating system. It would
be like having lolcats or cowsay on by default.

You can continue to have the morning email with a fortune quote, you
will not lose that functionality. Everyone wins.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
This statement is factually incorrect.
It just is not the case.
I've received fortune in email every morning for about 14 years. That's well over 5000 fortunes. I've never seen even vaguely offensive content.
The default settings do not deliver patently offensive content, period.
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
...
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who cares if some
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all the Linux
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be "Linux lik
e".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.
I'm done now. :)
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably learned that
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and the
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment like ours.
I have to agree with the negative reaction to the Red Hat comparison.
Saying that FreeBSD obviously isn't linux doesn't address the concern over this comparison.
If you think fortune is a flame war lightning rod, maybe you haven't heard of systemd?
systemd is a Red Hat product.
There are many different reasons for the controversy over systemd. One of them is that it removes the individuality of adopting distributions, making them more uniform. The corporation in charge of that uniformity being Red Hat.
People don't like the elimination of fortune for the same reason they didn't like the politically-correct-ification of beastie: It makes the OS seem less like something made by individuals for individuals, and more like a polished, "risk and exposure" averse, corporate product. In a word, dehumanized.
johnea
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
Rodney W. Grimes
2017-11-27 01:46:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Warner Losh
Post by Benno Rice
Post by Kurt Lidl
I would like people?s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage
from the default .login/.profile files.
Post by Kurt Lidl
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Post by Kurt Lidl
Of these options, only #2 is approximately correct.
I think just leaving the code as-is, and symlinking the freebsd-tips to
be the default fortune datafile is the correct course of action.
Removing the offensive flag handling dictates policy towards users
of the program. If someone wants to add their own offensive datafile
to their system, the code ought to allow them to select it.
Agreed. I think removing the default datfiles so that someone can
maintain
a port is fine, but we should leave freebsd-tips and the tool. When
the -o database was moved out of base we didn't remove the -o option, but
instead extended the tool to work with string files in /usr/local. The
current state is fine. The drama and lost time has always been about the
4BSD datfiles, never about freebsd-tips or the tool itself, so the issue
is
resolved.
I like this plan. Let's call it consensus and implement.
[[ stupid gmail UI -- hit send too soon ]]
I call it "consensus" but know there's a number of folks on one end of the
spectrum that want it gone completely, and some on the other end that want
the datafile restored. And all sorts of opinions in between. Maybe "rough
consensus" in that it's about the "centroid" of the mass of opinions on the
topic, and a good argument can be made.
I find the "freebsd-tips is useful and makes the system more friendly,"
argument persuasive. I think it would help our brand and user experience to
have it there by default and it is very much the sort of thing that should
be in the base. Having the "fiunny" data files in a port and having the
tool in the base system is a reasonable compromise, though one that will be
revisited with pkg src in the future so if we get it wrong there's a
natural decision point not too far away.
I can support this position today. I do how ever want to point out
that this issue was visited some 20+ years ago and at that time
fortune(6) was part of the optional games distribution package and
it still came up as an issue, but iirc it was decided that if UCB
was okay with publishing this stuff, who are we to be there censors.

I was not here when the devolving of the games package happened,
its unfortunate (oh pun!) that this has lead us to having fortune(6)
end up as a non optional part of the base system.

For the time being what we have is a reasonable reconciliation of
that mistake.
--
Rod Grimes ***@freebsd.org
Rodney W. Grimes
2017-11-27 01:52:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Eugene Grosbein
Post by Cy Schubert
Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports
it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort.
Please don't mix fortune(6) C code with contents of src/usr.bin/fortune/datfi
les.
The code src/usr.bin/fortune/{fortune|strfile} is valuable and independend of
exact datfiles
and there is no reason to remove it from the base as we have no alternatives
for the task whey solve.
I think the way forward is to replace fortune in base with a shell script
to conditionally execute ${LOCALBASE}/bin/fortune and if not found advises
YEA!!!!! Someone that actually knows it is suppose to be called LOCALBASE
and not a hardcoded /usr/local!! I believe a few dozen of these have
slipped in to base over the years.

Now where is a virtual phk beer I can send to Cy?
Post by Cy Schubert
the user to ask their sysadmin to install a fortune port/package.
I have a revision in to do the removal and plan on creating a series of
ports based on bsdgames. However I'm totally willing to let someone else
take the lead on this.
I think this is acceptable.
--
Cheers,
--
Rod Grimes ***@freebsd.org
Chris H
2017-11-27 16:37:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Anderson
Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.
That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.
Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated,
knowing my intervention would end it.
Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me
the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted?

If you don't take the necessary time to fight for things you
believe in; no matter how insignificant they may seem to others.
What's the point?

--Chris
Post by Jonathan Anderson
Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson
Chris H
2017-11-27 18:23:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris H
said
Post by Jonathan Anderson
Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.
That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.
Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated,
knowing my intervention would end it.
Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me
the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted?
OK. This is a poor choice of examples to have used in an attempt to
make my point. I *really* should have taken more time to consider the
possibilities, *and* the *potential consequences* of that choice.
I'd like to offer my sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended
in reference to this example. :(
I'm big on freedom of speech. But, I don't tolerate "thoughtless"
speech, and nor, I think, should anyone else.

--Chris
Post by Chris H
If you don't take the necessary time to fight for things you
believe in; no matter how insignificant they may seem to others.
What's the point?
--Chris
Post by Jonathan Anderson
Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
Chris H
2017-11-29 00:19:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farhan Khan
Post by f***@johnea.net
said
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
This statement is factually incorrect.
It just is not the case.
I've received fortune in email every morning for about 14 years. That's well
over 5000 fortunes. I've never seen even vaguely offensive content.
The default settings do not deliver patently offensive content, period.
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by default,
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
...
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going to have
to
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who cares if
some
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all the
Linux
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be "Linux
lik
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by Chris H
e".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.
I'm done now. :)
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably learned that
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and the
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment like ours.
I have to agree with the negative reaction to the Red Hat comparison.
Saying that FreeBSD obviously isn't linux doesn't address the concern over
this comparison.
If you think fortune is a flame war lightning rod, maybe you haven't heard of
systemd?
systemd is a Red Hat product.
There are many different reasons for the controversy over systemd. One of
them is that it removes the individuality of adopting distributions, making
them more uniform. The corporation in charge of that uniformity being Red Hat.
People don't like the elimination of fortune for the same reason they didn't
like the politically-correct-ification of beastie: It makes the OS seem less
like something made by individuals for individuals, and more like a polished,
"risk and exposure" averse, corporate product. In a word, dehumanized.
johnea
Respectfully re-flowing your *disrespectful* Top Post
Post by Farhan Khan
(I write this with a respectful tone in my voice.)
With respect, FreeBSD is an operating system, not a person to be
dehumanized. If you so strongly desire to run fortune, do a quick `pkg
install fortune`. You can continue to utilize this feature as you
please. Problem solved. No one is censoring anyone's speech, just
install it from the packages. It will likely take literally 2 seconds.
Being relatively new to FreeBSD on my servers, I always found fortune by
default as unbecoming of an enterprise-class operating system. It would
be like having lolcats or cowsay on by default.
You can continue to have the morning email with a fortune quote, you
will not lose that functionality. Everyone wins.
END re-flow

What I think many responding to this thread may not understand; is that
for some (many?) of us, the source referred to, we have been cobbling on,
and using for 30+ years. In fact fortune(6) (as Shawn noted earlier)
*predates* FreeBSD; or more accurately; the BSD. Point being; fortune(6)
(as well as it's growing data set) is a part of it's heritage. Call
it sentimental if you like. But there's not a hell-of-a-lot of that
heritage left. fortune' data set, for the most part, is quite harmless,
and often, fairly witty. You must directly request the portion that
(apparently) some might find offensive. But in reality, it's really
only references to part of global history. I experienced far worse than
this in my history classes in grade && high school. That being WWII
films that graphically depicted the atrocities imposed/inflicted on
so many the victims. Should we eliminate world history classes, because
some students might not like what they hear, and see? Hell, why not
eliminate school entirely then?
The point I'd like to make here; is that fortune(6), and it's
accompanying data sets are *not* harmful. They are one of the *few*
bits left of the *original* BSD, and should be allowed to stay as-is,
for posterity. Even tho many of the new-comers don't completely
understand.

Thank you for listening.

--Chris
Farhan Khan
2017-11-29 01:27:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hi Chris,

Thank you for your response. I must disagree.

A) If your concern is heritage, people can look into the BSD history.
This is readily available online.

B) If you feel there is utility, `pkg install fortune`. Everyone is happy.

I am not certain how my previous email came off as rude. Perhaps a loss
of tone in my voice over email? If you knew me in person, you would know
that I did not intend any disrespect.

Thanks!
Farhan
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
"Chris
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 09:11:43 -0800 "Cy Schubert"
said
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old
grandkids
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
This statement is factually incorrect.
It just is not the case.
I've received fortune in email every morning for about 14 years.
That's well
Post by f***@johnea.net
over 5000 fortunes. I've never seen even vaguely offensive content.
Post by f***@johnea.net
The default settings do not deliver patently offensive content,
period.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by
default,
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
...
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going
to have
Post by f***@johnea.net
to
Post by f***@johnea.net
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who
cares if
Post by f***@johnea.net
some
Post by f***@johnea.net
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all
the
Post by f***@johnea.net
Linux
Post by f***@johnea.net
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be
"Linux
Post by f***@johnea.net
lik
Post by f***@johnea.net
e".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.
I'm done now. :)
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably
learned that
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and
the
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment
like ours.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
I have to agree with the negative reaction to the Red Hat comparison.
Saying that FreeBSD obviously isn't linux doesn't address the
concern over
Post by f***@johnea.net
this comparison.
Post by f***@johnea.net
If you think fortune is a flame war lightning rod, maybe you
haven't heard of
Post by f***@johnea.net
systemd?
Post by f***@johnea.net
systemd is a Red Hat product.
There are many different reasons for the controversy over systemd.
One of
Post by f***@johnea.net
them is that it removes the individuality of adopting distributions,
making
Post by f***@johnea.net
them more uniform. The corporation in charge of that uniformity
being Red Hat.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
People don't like the elimination of fortune for the same reason
they didn't
Post by f***@johnea.net
like the politically-correct-ification of beastie: It makes the OS
seem less
Post by f***@johnea.net
like something made by individuals for individuals, and more like a
polished,
Post by f***@johnea.net
"risk and exposure" averse, corporate product. In a word, dehumanized.
Post by f***@johnea.net
johnea
Respectfully re-flowing your *disrespectful* Top Post
Post by Cy Schubert
(I write this with a respectful tone in my voice.)
With respect, FreeBSD is an operating system, not a person to be
dehumanized. If you so strongly desire to run fortune, do a quick `pkg
install fortune`. You can continue to utilize this feature as you
please. Problem solved. No one is censoring anyone's speech, just
install it from the packages. It will likely take literally 2 seconds.
Being relatively new to FreeBSD on my servers, I always found fortune
by default as unbecoming of an enterprise-class operating system. It
would be like having lolcats or cowsay on by default.
You can continue to have the morning email with a fortune quote, you
will not lose that functionality. Everyone wins.
END re-flow
What I think many responding to this thread may not understand; is that
for some (many?) of us, the source referred to, we have been cobbling on,
and using for 30+ years. In fact fortune(6) (as Shawn noted earlier)
*predates* FreeBSD; or more accurately; the BSD. Point being; fortune(6)
(as well as it's growing data set) is a part of it's heritage. Call
it sentimental if you like. But there's not a hell-of-a-lot of that
heritage left. fortune' data set, for the most part, is quite harmless,
and often, fairly witty. You must directly request the portion that
(apparently) some might find offensive. But in reality, it's really
only references to part of global history. I experienced far worse than
this in my history classes in grade && high school. That being WWII
films that graphically depicted the atrocities imposed/inflicted on
so many the victims. Should we eliminate world history classes, because
some students might not like what they hear, and see? Hell, why not
eliminate school entirely then?
The point I'd like to make here; is that fortune(6), and it's
accompanying data sets are *not* harmful. They are one of the *few*
bits left of the *original* BSD, and should be allowed to stay as-is,
for posterity. Even tho many of the new-comers don't completely
understand.
Thank you for listening.
--Chris
Chris H
2017-11-29 02:06:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farhan Khan
Post by Chris H
Post by Cy Schubert
"Chris
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 09:11:43 -0800 "Cy Schubert"
said
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old
grandkids
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Post by Cy Schubert
play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids
even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would
have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs.
This statement is factually incorrect.
It just is not the case.
I've received fortune in email every morning for about 14 years.
That's well
Post by f***@johnea.net
over 5000 fortunes. I've never seen even vaguely offensive content.
Post by f***@johnea.net
The default settings do not deliver patently offensive content,
period.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
You have to try quite hard to find them, they aren't given by
default,
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
$ fortune -o
No fortunes found
in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
...
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by Cy Schubert
It's 2017. If Red Hat doesn't support fortune why should we?
OK this is the 2nd time you've said that, and I'm afraid I'm going
to have
Post by f***@johnea.net
to
Post by f***@johnea.net
respond. :)
FreeBSD is *not* Red Hat, nor any other "flavor" of Linux. Who
cares if
Post by f***@johnea.net
some
Post by f***@johnea.net
other flavor of OS does, or does not "do it".
Sorry. I *greatly* appreciate that FreeBSD is /different/ than all
the
Post by f***@johnea.net
Linux
Post by f***@johnea.net
flavors, and would dearly hate that it felt that it should feel/be
"Linux
Post by f***@johnea.net
lik
Post by f***@johnea.net
e".
Over sensitive? Perhaps. But I simply couldn't resist.
I'm done now. :)
Of course FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro however RH has probably
learned that
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
contentious issues like this aren't worth the risk and exposure and
the
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
cost of supporting such software. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort.
Unnecessary software still exacts a cost even in an environment
like ours.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
I have to agree with the negative reaction to the Red Hat comparison.
Saying that FreeBSD obviously isn't linux doesn't address the
concern over
Post by f***@johnea.net
this comparison.
Post by f***@johnea.net
If you think fortune is a flame war lightning rod, maybe you
haven't heard of
Post by f***@johnea.net
systemd?
Post by f***@johnea.net
systemd is a Red Hat product.
There are many different reasons for the controversy over systemd.
One of
Post by f***@johnea.net
them is that it removes the individuality of adopting distributions,
making
Post by f***@johnea.net
them more uniform. The corporation in charge of that uniformity
being Red Hat.
Post by f***@johnea.net
Post by f***@johnea.net
People don't like the elimination of fortune for the same reason
they didn't
Post by f***@johnea.net
like the politically-correct-ification of beastie: It makes the OS
seem less
Post by f***@johnea.net
like something made by individuals for individuals, and more like a
polished,
Post by f***@johnea.net
"risk and exposure" averse, corporate product. In a word, dehumanized.
Post by f***@johnea.net
johnea
Respectfully re-flowing your *disrespectful* Top Post
Post by Cy Schubert
(I write this with a respectful tone in my voice.)
With respect, FreeBSD is an operating system, not a person to be
dehumanized. If you so strongly desire to run fortune, do a quick `pkg
install fortune`. You can continue to utilize this feature as you
please. Problem solved. No one is censoring anyone's speech, just
install it from the packages. It will likely take literally 2 seconds.
Being relatively new to FreeBSD on my servers, I always found fortune
by default as unbecoming of an enterprise-class operating system. It
would be like having lolcats or cowsay on by default.
You can continue to have the morning email with a fortune quote, you
will not lose that functionality. Everyone wins.
END re-flow
What I think many responding to this thread may not understand; is that
for some (many?) of us, the source referred to, we have been cobbling on,
and using for 30+ years. In fact fortune(6) (as Shawn noted earlier)
*predates* FreeBSD; or more accurately; the BSD. Point being; fortune(6)
(as well as it's growing data set) is a part of it's heritage. Call
it sentimental if you like. But there's not a hell-of-a-lot of that
heritage left. fortune' data set, for the most part, is quite harmless,
and often, fairly witty. You must directly request the portion that
(apparently) some might find offensive. But in reality, it's really
only references to part of global history. I experienced far worse than
this in my history classes in grade && high school. That being WWII
films that graphically depicted the atrocities imposed/inflicted on
so many the victims. Should we eliminate world history classes, because
some students might not like what they hear, and see? Hell, why not
eliminate school entirely then?
The point I'd like to make here; is that fortune(6), and it's
accompanying data sets are *not* harmful. They are one of the *few*
bits left of the *original* BSD, and should be allowed to stay as-is,
for posterity. Even tho many of the new-comers don't completely
understand.
Thank you for listening.
--Chris
Yet *another* reflow required due to *top posting* :(
Post by Farhan Khan
Hi Chris,
Thank you for your response. I must disagree.
A) If your concern is heritage, people can look into the BSD history.
This is readily available online.
B) If you feel there is utility, `pkg install fortune`. Everyone is happy.
I am not certain how my previous email came off as rude. Perhaps a loss
of tone in my voice over email? If you knew me in person, you would know
that I did not intend any disrespect.
Sorry. You seemed to have missed my inserts regarding your style of replies
eg; top posting
Which means; posting replies ABOVE the thread dialog. It completely
corrupts the flow (see; thread) and makes it impossible to follow along
in history -- especially from the archived FreeBSD mailing list. Answers
to questions will never be found. Answers will be left dangling, and make
no sense...
So (technically, and historically) this has always been considered; rude.
Nothing personal. Just felt it was important to point out.

--Chris out...
Post by Farhan Khan
Thanks!
Farhan
END reflow
Jamie Landeg-Jones
2017-11-29 13:36:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris H
Which means; posting replies ABOVE the thread dialog. It completely
corrupts the flow (see; thread) and makes it impossible to follow along
in history -- especially from the archived FreeBSD mailing list. Answers
to questions will never be found. Answers will be left dangling, and make
no sense...
So (technically, and historically) this has always been considered; rude.
Nothing personal. Just felt it was important to point out.
And related to that is editting/pruning the message you're replying to ;-)

Anyway, these lists turned into a spam fest of incomprehensible top posts
and unedited quoting a long time ago. No one (else) seems to care anymore.
:-(

As for the fortune bikeshed, I think there are 2 seperate issues that have
been raised, and conflated.

1) Whether the offensive datafile should have been removed.

2) The potentially POLA, unannounced, undiscussed, arbitary decision of
someone to make such a change on a whim.

Some reactions to the latter have been taken as responses to the former.

cheers
Daniel Eischen
2017-11-29 17:14:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jamie Landeg-Jones
And related to that is editting/pruning the message you're replying to ;-)
Anyway, these lists turned into a spam fest of incomprehensible top posts
and unedited quoting a long time ago. No one (else) seems to care anymore.
:-(
As for the fortune bikeshed, I think there are 2 seperate issues that have
been raised, and conflated.
1) Whether the offensive datafile should have been removed.
2) The potentially POLA, unannounced, undiscussed, arbitary decision of
someone to make such a change on a whim.
Some reactions to the latter have been taken as responses to the former.
And considering that -base is being pkg'ized, shouldn't have the
question been "should we keep it in base or move it to ports"?
It'll be a package regardless, and just [supposing] because it's
in -base doesn't mean it gets installed by default.

Not much of an opinion on fortune(6), though sad to see most of it
culled. But perhaps future Danish axings should wait and see how
pkg-ized base plays out? Ask where do we want to maintain it, base
or ports; it can be optionally installed either way.

And is history saved when moving things from base to ports?
--
DE
Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-11-29 18:50:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Daniel Eischen <***@vigrid.com> wrote:
|On Wed, 29 Nov 2017, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote:
|> And related to that is editting/pruning the message you're replying to ;-)
...
|> As for the fortune bikeshed, I think there are 2 seperate issues that have
|> been raised, and conflated.
|>
|> 1) Whether the offensive datafile should have been removed.
...
|And considering that -base is being pkg'ized, shouldn't have the
|question been "should we keep it in base or move it to ports"?
|It'll be a package regardless, and just [supposing] because it's
|in -base doesn't mean it gets installed by default.
|
|Not much of an opinion on fortune(6), though sad to see most of it
|culled. But perhaps future Danish axings should wait and see how
|pkg-ized base plays out? Ask where do we want to maintain it, base
|or ports; it can be optionally installed either way.
|
|And is history saved when moving things from base to ports?

And: are children raised cleaner when they never come in contact
with the dark side. I think no, it is either itself brainwashing
(many of the Hitlerjugend really believed, did they) or a sign of
mental immaturity or weakness of the parents. Some cultures
however force(d) special skull or other bone forms for their
youth by putting the bone(s) in question in splints. That works.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
Cy Schubert
2018-04-07 19:47:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Andric w
--Apple-Mail=_6F848AAA-AFAC-4D7C-A7F0-E25476750616
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
=20
...
=20
FWIW, a clean head checkout as of r332035 can build world just fine =
for
mips.mips64elhf, that is with __MAKE_CONF and SRCCONF both set to
/dev/null. So it's likely due to your changes, I'll try those =
tomorrow.
=20
Agreed. I might be onto it. Building to verify my hypothesis.
--- includes_subdir_kerberos5/lib ---
install: target directory =
`/home/dim/obj/head/home/dim/src/head/mips.mips64elhf/tmp/usr/include/priv=
ate/asn1/' does not exist
usage: install [-bCcpSsUv] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner]
[-M log] [-D dest] [-h hash] [-T tags]
[-B suffix] [-l linkflags] [-N dbdir]
file1 file2
install [-bCcpSsUv] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner]
[-M log] [-D dest] [-h hash] [-T tags]
[-B suffix] [-l linkflags] [-N dbdir]
file1 ... fileN directory
install -dU [-vU] [-g group] [-m mode] [-N dbdir] [-o owner]
[-M log] [-D dest] [-h hash] [-T tags]
directory ...
--- includes_subdir_kerberos5/usr.bin ---
--- includes_subdir_kerberos5/usr.bin/kinit ---
=3D=3D=3D> kerberos5/usr.bin/kinit (includes)
--- includes_subdir_kerberos5/lib ---
*** [_INCSINS] Error code 64
Index: etc/mtree/BSD.usr.dist
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--- etc/mtree/BSD.usr.dist (revision 332040)
+++ etc/mtree/BSD.usr.dist (working copy)
@@ -9,6 +9,8 @@
..
include
private
+ asn1
+ ..
bsdstat
..
event
--- common.pico ---
In file included from =
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/hi_locl.h:57:25: error: =
asn1-common.h: No such file or directory
--- client.o ---
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c: In function =
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:384: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:384: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:384: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:384: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:384: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:384: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:391: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:392: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:396: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:396: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:396: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:405: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:406: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:407: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:407: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:408: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:410: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:410: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:410: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:413: error: =
dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c: In function =
/home/dim/src/head/crypto/heimdal/lib/ipc/client.c:562: error: storage =
size of 'rcv' isn't known
E.g. for some reason the required headers aren't found anymore.
I never get to the stage where linking fails, in any case. :)
I committed the fix in r332124. I forgot to fully remove an early
workaround I was using early during the conversion effort. Building
tinderbox on universe12b completed successfully.
I'll put together a patch from the krb5 branch for my exp-run PR and
post a copy here. That should make it simpler for people to test. I'll
try to have the patch posted tomorrow when I have more than a few
minutes alone (we're babysitting a grandchild today, my day off from
$JOB).
The attached patch applies cleanly to and builds on r332165, verified
on universe12b.

The exp-run I requested is PR 222745.
Cy Schubert
2018-07-05 01:07:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Device: /dev/ada1, 2 Currently unreadable (pending) sectors
Device: /dev/ada1, 2 Offline uncorrectable sectors
smartctl -a /dev/ada1 seems to be reassuring me that everything is
fine (SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED),
If that would say FAILED, you should be replacing the disk immediately.
PASSED does not mean it has no problems, but problems are not fatal (yet).
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always
- 2
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0030 200 200 000 Old_age
Offline - 2
which sounds like it confirms the log message above. The disk is
part of a zraid pool whose "zpool status" also says everything is
okay. What's the recommended action at this point? -- George
You need to force the disk performing rewrite of those two bad sectors.
There is a possibility they are just an example of "soft bad" and in that eve
nt
the problem will just disappear without new remaps, that would be best possbl
e case.
Or two sectors could happen really bad and remap will "fix" (really hide) the
problem,
in that case you should be ready for possible increasing number of bad sector
s
and have a replacement handy.
First step is running zpool scrub or even replace the disk and run "dd if=/de
v/zero of=/dev/ada1".
A better option would be to determine which blocks had the issue. Then
use dd if=/dev/ada1 of=/dev/ada1 iseek=<the bad block> oseek=<bad block>
count=<number of bad blocks>

Alternatively you can dd_rescue -d -s <input block #> -S <output block
#> /dev/ada1 /dev/ada1

Failing that dd_rescue the whole device. Make sure your zpool has been
exported. If "repairing" a UFS root filesystem, use single user mode or
the machine will panic, though no loss of data, just a PITA.


This avoids loss of data.

Ideally your best bet would be to back up the data and write zeros,
ones, and some random data. This "exercises" each sector such that
there is less chance of having the same magnetic transitions
interfering with each other. The reason is that an actuator never
writes to the same area of disk because of variations in actuator
movement. Phantom transitions have a slight chance of having effect.

Finally, if after going through this exercise the bad sectors are not
remapped or clear up only to show up as bad later then replace the
disk. Of course if your data is critically important then replace the
disk right away. You don't know how quickly your disk is aging or
deteriorating until it's too late.

On the positive side, I've been able to resurrect many disks this way.
If in a critical server (my main machine or firewall) I replace the
disk immediately, moving the one experiencing errors to a testbed
machine, one I don't mind losing data as it's easily reproduced or
replicated from the main machine. Many times the flaky disks don't
complain while in my testbed for years before dying.

YMMV
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
George Mitchell
2018-07-05 01:42:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cy Schubert
[...]
Failing that dd_rescue the whole device. Make sure your zpool has been
exported. If "repairing" a UFS root filesystem, use single user mode or
the machine will panic, though no loss of data, just a PITA.
[...]
I've never heard of dd_rescue, but I see it is in sysutils/dd_rescue.
I'll try that when the long smartctl test finishes (i.e. tomorrow
morning, most likely).

Thanks for all the help! I'm pretty calm about the situation at the
moment, because the zpool is not my root file system and (as of now)
zraid has never failed me. Also, I can take this machine off line
as required with only minor inconvenience to anyone. -- George
Cy Schubert
2018-11-17 22:53:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@photon.int.bluestop.org>, Rebecca Cran
via freeb
I'm running 13-CURRENT from a few days ago. I noticed the system using severa
l
GB of swap despite having 90GB RAM still free. I know FreeBSD will use *some*
,
but 3450MB seems excessive when there's still 90GB RAM free.
CPU: 0.1% user, 0.0% nice, 0.0% system, 0.0% interrupt, 99.8% idle
Mem: 3392M Active, 5489M Inact, 390M Laundry, 25G Wired, 90G Free
ARC: 19G Total, 8080M MFU, 9242M MRU, 64K Anon, 197M Header, 1570M Other
15G Compressed, 26G Uncompressed, 1.73:1 Ratio
Swap: 8192M Total, 3450M Used, 4742M Free, 42% Inuse, 36K In
Quitting firefox caused the swap usage to drop to just 460MB. I don't
understand why it would decide to swap out so much, especially since I have
vm.swap_idle_enabled set to 0.
Were you by chance building any ports at the time? Or, possibly
extracting a tarball?
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Cy Schubert
2018-11-18 01:54:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <F5ACF6D0-DBD7-416F-9AAC-***@yahoo.com>, Mark
Millard via f
freebsd will not swap with that lots of free ram.
but it's 90GB free NOW, how about before?
Your information is outdated. For at least a couple years now (since
approximately the 10.1 - 10.2 timeframe is my vague estimate), freebsd
will page out application memory that hasn't been referenced for some
time, even when the system has no shortage of free memory at all.
No, FreeBSD will only ever swap when there is a free page shortage. The
difference is that we now slowly age unreferenced pages into the
inactive queue, which makes them candidates for pageout and subsequent
eviction. With pageout_update_period=0, anonymous memory won't get
paged out unless there's a shortage of inactive pages, or an application
calls madvise(MADV_DONTNEED) on a range of memory (which moves any
backing pages to the inactive queue).
Swapping is built on top of paging as I understand. The system
can page without swapping but can not swap without (effectively)
paging to implement the swapping, if I understand right. If I
understand right, swapped-out means that kernel stacks have
been written out and have to be loaded back in RAM before the
process/threads can even run. (I might not understand.)
If I've got that right, are there distinctions here for
paging that is not part of swapping vs. actual swapping
(and its use of paging)? Saying that something does not
it still could have paging activity that does not include
moving the kernel stacks for the process to backing media?
This is generally the old-school definition, IIRC third year comp sci,
original BSD definition, which was also the way IBM defined it for MVS.
(IBM also virtually swapped out address spaces, not written to DASD, as
a means to deny CPU cycles through the scheduler not given the chance
to consider the tasks (threads) in the address space).

You can disable swapping by setting vm.swap_enabled=0.
At times I have trouble interpreting when wording goes back
and forth between swapping and paging, both for the intended
meaning and for the technical implications.
sysctl vm.pageout_update_period=0
I've been using it on a couple systems here for a few days now, and so
far results are promising, I am no longer seeing gratuitous swapfile
usage on systems that have so much free physical ram that they should
never need to page anything out. I haven't yet pushed one of those
systems hard enough to check what happens when they do need to start
proactively paging out inactive memory due to shortages -- it could be
that turning off the new behavior has downsides for some workloads.
===
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com
( dsl-only.net went
away in early 2018-Mar)
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Stefan Blachmann
2018-11-18 12:11:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The inconveniences that the new swapping strategy causes are a regular
topic in the FreeBSD forums.

Desktop users complain about lagginess, server users complain of long
delays because server processes intended to be kept in memory for
quick response times got swapped out and need to be swapped in again,
resulting in outrageously poor server performance in spite of plenty
of unused memory.

Turning off swap completely, as Cy Schubert suggests, is strongly
discouraged in the forums, as it can lead to kernel panicking because
of being unable to swap out in critical kernel memory shortage
situations, leading to the risk of very serious filesystem
corruption.

However, Cy Schubert is probably right when stating that the new
swapping strategy resembles the 1960s-1980s industry's main swapping
strategy.
The bad thing is now, that nowadays memory is no longer scarce and
people can dimension their memory such that under normal circumstances
there will never be any need to swap.

So I guess the unwillingness of the developer team to add an option
like "NoPreemptiveSwapping", which disables swapping out as long as
there is free physical memory available, is of psychological nature.

Lacking such an option, there is still the possibility to use rctl to
disable swapping for particular users, processes, jails etc to
mitigate the problems caused by the new swapping strategy to some
degree.
Post by Cy Schubert
Millard via f
freebsd will not swap with that lots of free ram.
but it's 90GB free NOW, how about before?
Your information is outdated. For at least a couple years now (since
approximately the 10.1 - 10.2 timeframe is my vague estimate), freebsd
will page out application memory that hasn't been referenced for some
time, even when the system has no shortage of free memory at all.
No, FreeBSD will only ever swap when there is a free page shortage.
The
difference is that we now slowly age unreferenced pages into the
inactive queue, which makes them candidates for pageout and subsequent
eviction. With pageout_update_period=0, anonymous memory won't get
paged out unless there's a shortage of inactive pages, or an application
calls madvise(MADV_DONTNEED) on a range of memory (which moves any
backing pages to the inactive queue).
Swapping is built on top of paging as I understand. The system
can page without swapping but can not swap without (effectively)
paging to implement the swapping, if I understand right. If I
understand right, swapped-out means that kernel stacks have
been written out and have to be loaded back in RAM before the
process/threads can even run. (I might not understand.)
If I've got that right, are there distinctions here for
paging that is not part of swapping vs. actual swapping
(and its use of paging)? Saying that something does not
it still could have paging activity that does not include
moving the kernel stacks for the process to backing media?
This is generally the old-school definition, IIRC third year comp sci,
original BSD definition, which was also the way IBM defined it for MVS.
(IBM also virtually swapped out address spaces, not written to DASD, as
a means to deny CPU cycles through the scheduler not given the chance
to consider the tasks (threads) in the address space).
You can disable swapping by setting vm.swap_enabled=0.
At times I have trouble interpreting when wording goes back
and forth between swapping and paging, both for the intended
meaning and for the technical implications.
sysctl vm.pageout_update_period=0
I've been using it on a couple systems here for a few days now, and so
far results are promising, I am no longer seeing gratuitous swapfile
usage on systems that have so much free physical ram that they should
never need to page anything out. I haven't yet pushed one of those
systems hard enough to check what happens when they do need to start
proactively paging out inactive memory due to shortages -- it could be
that turning off the new behavior has downsides for some workloads.
===
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com
( dsl-only.net went
away in early 2018-Mar)
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
To unsubscribe, send any mail to
--
Cheers,
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
George Mitchell
2018-11-18 13:02:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stefan Blachmann
The inconveniences that the new swapping strategy causes are a regular
topic in the FreeBSD forums.
Desktop users complain about lagginess, server users complain of long
delays because server processes intended to be kept in memory for
quick response times got swapped out and need to be swapped in again,
resulting in outrageously poor server performance in spite of plenty
of unused memory. [...]
Before necessarily blaming swapping, have you tried substituting
SCHED_4BSD for SCHED_ULE in the kernel? SCHED_ULE is not the world
champion scheduler for interactive tasks.

(I'm ducking back into my rabbit hole now and no one needs to throw
any more brickbats at me. Sorry for the digression.) -- George
Stefan Blachmann
2018-11-18 14:31:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Probably a good suggestion to try the alternative scheduler, thank you.
However, as people a) always see disk activity LED flashing up when PC
is "lagging", which can be clearly identified as swap I/O using the
various utilities, and b) these "lag" issues do not appear with swap
deactivated, I think I have reason to believe the performance issues
are not scheduler-related.
Post by George Mitchell
Post by Stefan Blachmann
The inconveniences that the new swapping strategy causes are a regular
topic in the FreeBSD forums.
Desktop users complain about lagginess, server users complain of long
delays because server processes intended to be kept in memory for
quick response times got swapped out and need to be swapped in again,
resulting in outrageously poor server performance in spite of plenty
of unused memory. [...]
Before necessarily blaming swapping, have you tried substituting
SCHED_4BSD for SCHED_ULE in the kernel? SCHED_ULE is not the world
champion scheduler for interactive tasks.
(I'm ducking back into my rabbit hole now and no one needs to throw
any more brickbats at me. Sorry for the digression.) -- George
Wojciech Puchar
2018-11-18 16:53:52 UTC
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why someone changes WELL WORKING swapping algorithm?
Post by Stefan Blachmann
So I guess the unwillingness of the developer team to add an option
like "NoPreemptiveSwapping", which disables swapping out as long as
there is free physical memory available, is of psychological nature.
in FReeBSD 12 there is

vm.swap_idle_threshold2: 10
vm.swap_idle_threshold1: 2
vm.swap_idle_enabled: 0


which works as expected and can be turned on or off as required.

what's wrong with it
RW via freebsd-hackers
2018-11-18 19:30:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 17:53:52 +0100 (CET)
Post by Wojciech Puchar
why someone changes WELL WORKING swapping algorithm?
Post by Stefan Blachmann
So I guess the unwillingness of the developer team to add an option
like "NoPreemptiveSwapping", which disables swapping out as long as
there is free physical memory available, is of psychological
nature.
in FReeBSD 12 there is
vm.swap_idle_threshold2: 10
vm.swap_idle_threshold1: 2
vm.swap_idle_enabled: 0
which works as expected and can be turned on or off as required.
The above settings are about process level swapping, i.e. the
deactivation of whole processes, they don't control swapping in the
sense of paging out to the swap device.

By default process swapping is only used under extreme memory shortage,
setting vm.swap_idle_enabled=1 allows idle processes to be deactivated.
It's only really intended for some special cases like login servers,
which tend to have a lot of inactive shell and editor processes.

Changing those setting wont reduce swap usage, they may increase
it.
Wojciech Puchar
2018-11-19 10:24:01 UTC
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Permalink
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
The above settings are about process level swapping, i.e. the
deactivation of whole processes, they don't control swapping in the
sense of paging out to the swap device.
By default process swapping is only used under extreme memory shortage,
setting vm.swap_idle_enabled=1 allows idle processes to be deactivated.
It's only really intended for some special cases like login servers,
which tend to have a lot of inactive shell and editor processes.
and my servers that have LOTS of httpd servers each for one webpage which
are usually rarely visited.
Post by RW via freebsd-hackers
Changing those setting wont reduce swap usage, they may increase
it.
_______________________________________________
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Mark Millard via freebsd-hackers
2018-11-18 17:51:25 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Stefan Blachmann
The inconveniences that the new swapping strategy causes are a regular
topic in the FreeBSD forums.
Desktop users complain about lagginess, server users complain of long
delays because server processes intended to be kept in memory for
quick response times got swapped out and need to be swapped in again,
resulting in outrageously poor server performance in spite of plenty
of unused memory.
I've no clue of the variations in workloads involved for
various folks, but I only see swapping/paging once free
memory is low in my UFS based contexts. (I've not used
ZFS in a long time.) I do not see free RAM decreasing
without known, expected use of the RAM. Mostly I've had
to learn how late it may be before pages for cached
information explicitly moves back to free, no matter if
that involves paging/swapping out or not.

As I understand what Mark Johnston reported, he said that there is
no preemptive paging/swapping:

"FreeBSD will only ever swap when there is a free page shortage"

Moving between Active and Inactive does not of itself involve
paging/swapping. So that part of his description is a different
issue.

So the issue may trace back to why there ends up being a prior
free RAM shortage and/or when pages are moved back to RAM after
such a shortage.

I believe my report above is consistent with what Mark
Johnston reported about the modern algorithm(s) involved.
Post by Stefan Blachmann
Turning off swap completely, as Cy Schubert suggests, is strongly
discouraged in the forums, as it can lead to kernel panicking because
of being unable to swap out in critical kernel memory shortage
situations, leading to the risk of very serious filesystem
corruption.
However, Cy Schubert is probably right when stating that the new
swapping strategy resembles the 1960s-1980s industry's main swapping
strategy.
Important parts of "new" way seems to have been in place since after
4.4BSD (so BSD 5.0 and later) . . .

The book "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System"
(2nd edition) states (page labeled 296):

QUOTE:
The FreeBSD swap-out daemon will not select a runnable processes to swap
out. So, if the set of runnable processes do not fit in memory, the
machine will effectively deadlock. Current machines have enough memory
that this condition usually does not arise. If it does, FreeBSD avoids
deadlock by killing the largest process. If the condition begins to arise
in normal operation, the 4.4BSD algorithm will need to be restored.
END QUOTE.

(I've not found vm.pageout_oom_seq in the book. It is for controlling
how much effort is put into freeing RAM before kills start, and so,
indirectly, the elapsed time that happens before those kills start.)

I'm not sure what specific changes that are newer might be under
discussion.
Post by Stefan Blachmann
The bad thing is now, that nowadays memory is no longer scarce and
people can dimension their memory such that under normal circumstances
there will never be any need to swap.
My typical use is apparently not normal. I'd agree with that.
Post by Stefan Blachmann
So I guess the unwillingness of the developer team to add an option
like "NoPreemptiveSwapping", which disables swapping out as long as
there is free physical memory available, is of psychological nature.
Unsure how to interpret this given:

"FreeBSD will only ever swap when there is a free page shortage"
Post by Stefan Blachmann
Lacking such an option, there is still the possibility to use rctl to
disable swapping for particular users, processes, jails etc to
mitigate the problems caused by the new swapping strategy to some
degree.
Whatever is going on for this, it seems a more technical identification
of what it is would be needed in order to get to the right context.
(It may be non-trivial to identify.)

===
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com
( dsl-only.net went
away in early 2018-Mar)
Ian Lepore
2018-11-24 17:15:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stefan Blachmann
The inconveniences that the new swapping strategy causes are a regular
topic in the FreeBSD forums.
Desktop users complain about lagginess, server users complain of long
delays because server processes intended to be kept in memory for
quick response times got swapped out and need to be swapped in again,
resulting in outrageously poor server performance in spite of plenty
of unused memory.
Turning off swap completely, as Cy Schubert suggests, is strongly
discouraged in the forums, as it can lead to kernel panicking because
of being unable to swap out in critical kernel memory shortage
situations, leading to the risk of  very serious filesystem
corruption.
However, Cy Schubert is probably right when stating that the new
swapping strategy resembles the 1960s-1980s industry's main swapping
strategy.
The bad thing is now, that nowadays memory is no longer scarce and
people can dimension their memory such that under normal circumstances
there will never be any need to swap.
So I guess the unwillingness of the developer team to add an option
like "NoPreemptiveSwapping", which disables swapping out as long as
there is free physical memory available, is of psychological nature.
Lacking such an option, there is still the possibility to use rctl to
disable swapping for particular users, processes, jails etc to
mitigate the problems caused by the new swapping strategy to some
degree.
Well that was a nice little rant, I hope you feel better. Perhaps it
has cleared your mind enough to eventually realize that I gave you the
command to do exactly what you sarcastically suggest "the developer
team" is unwilling to implement.

It's still there, in the quoted text below, not quite completely
obscured by the typical word soup of irrelevancies from the usual
source which sidetracked this thread into a discussion about swapping,
which isn't involved in any way (and served with a side of mixed top
and bottom posting to make it almost impossible to follow the
conversation).

-- Ian
Post by Stefan Blachmann
Post by Cy Schubert
Millard via f
freebsd will not swap with that lots of free ram.
but it's 90GB free NOW, how about before?
Your information is outdated. For at least a couple years now (since
approximately the 10.1 - 10.2 timeframe is my vague
estimate), freebsd
will page out application memory that hasn't been referenced for some
time, even when the system has no shortage of free memory at all.
No, FreeBSD will only ever swap when there is a free page shortage.
The
difference is that we now slowly age unreferenced pages into the
inactive queue, which makes them candidates for pageout and subsequent
eviction.  With pageout_update_period=0, anonymous memory won't
get
paged out unless there's a shortage of inactive pages, or an application
calls madvise(MADV_DONTNEED) on a range of memory (which moves any
backing pages to the inactive queue).
Swapping is built on top of paging as I understand. The system
can page without swapping but can not swap without (effectively)
paging to implement the swapping, if I understand right. If I
understand right, swapped-out means that kernel stacks have
been written out and have to be loaded back in RAM before the
process/threads can even run. (I might not understand.)
If I've got that right, are there distinctions here for
paging that is not part of swapping vs. actual swapping
(and its use of paging)? Saying that something does not
it still could have paging activity that does not include
moving the kernel stacks for the process to backing media?
This is generally the old-school definition, IIRC third year comp sci,
original BSD definition, which was also the way IBM defined it for MVS.
(IBM also virtually swapped out address spaces, not written to DASD, as
a means to deny CPU cycles through the scheduler not given the chance
to consider the tasks (threads) in the address space).
You can disable swapping by setting vm.swap_enabled=0.
At times I have trouble interpreting when wording goes back
and forth between swapping and paging, both for the intended
meaning and for the technical implications.
  sysctl vm.pageout_update_period=0
I've been using it on a couple systems here for a few days now, and so
far results are promising, I am no longer seeing gratuitous swapfile
usage on systems that have so much free physical ram that they should
never need to page anything out. I haven't yet pushed one of those
systems hard enough to check what happens when they do need to start
proactively paging out inactive memory due to shortages -- it could be
that turning off the new behavior has downsides for some workloads.
===
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com
( dsl-only.net went
away in early 2018-Mar)
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
To unsubscribe, send any mail to
--
Cheers,
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
sd.org"
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
.org"
Cy Schubert
2018-11-24 17:47:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Lepore
Post by Stefan Blachmann
The inconveniences that the new swapping strategy causes are a regular
topic in the FreeBSD forums.
Desktop users complain about lagginess, server users complain of long
delays because server processes intended to be kept in memory for
quick response times got swapped out and need to be swapped in again,
resulting in outrageously poor server performance in spite of plenty
of unused memory.
Turning off swap completely, as Cy Schubert suggests, is strongly
discouraged in the forums, as it can lead to kernel panicking because
of being unable to swap out in critical kernel memory shortage
situations, leading to the risk of  very serious filesystem
corruption.
However, Cy Schubert is probably right when stating that the new
swapping strategy resembles the 1960s-1980s industry's main swapping
strategy.
The bad thing is now, that nowadays memory is no longer scarce and
people can dimension their memory such that under normal circumstances
there will never be any need to swap.
So I guess the unwillingness of the developer team to add an option
like "NoPreemptiveSwapping", which disables swapping out as long as
there is free physical memory available, is of psychological nature.
Lacking such an option, there is still the possibility to use rctl to
disable swapping for particular users, processes, jails etc to
mitigate the problems caused by the new swapping strategy to some
degree.
Well that was a nice little rant, I hope you feel better. Perhaps it
has cleared your mind enough to eventually realize that I gave you the
command to do exactly what you sarcastically suggest "the developer
team" is unwilling to implement.
It's still there, in the quoted text below, not quite completely
obscured by the typical word soup of irrelevancies from the usual
source which sidetracked this thread into a discussion about swapping,
which isn't involved in any way (and served with a side of mixed top
and bottom posting to make it almost impossible to follow the
conversation).
-- Ian
There was some question about swapping, which I had answered. My point
was: this technology has been around for decades and that almost all
operating systems manage memory in a similar fashion -- I believe my
answer was a little more subtle and wordy, put bluntly: this is CS 101
and everyone here should understand it.

It doesn't pay to be subtle. Bluntly: it's virtually done the same
everywhere. So what is the problem?
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
Post by Ian Lepore
Post by Stefan Blachmann
Post by Cy Schubert
Millard via f
On 2018-Nov-17, at 16:13, Mark Johnston <markj at freebsd.org>
freebsd will not swap with that lots of free ram.
but it's 90GB free NOW, how about before?
Your information is outdated. For at least a couple years now
(since
approximately the 10.1 - 10.2 timeframe is my vague
estimate), freebsd
will page out application memory that hasn't been referenced
for some
time, even when the system has no shortage of free memory at
all.
No, FreeBSD will only ever swap when there is a free page
shortage.
The
difference is that we now slowly age unreferenced pages into
the
inactive queue, which makes them candidates for pageout and
subsequent
eviction.  With pageout_update_period=0, anonymous memory won't
get
paged out unless there's a shortage of inactive pages, or an
application
calls madvise(MADV_DONTNEED) on a range of memory (which moves
any
backing pages to the inactive queue).
Swapping is built on top of paging as I understand. The system
can page without swapping but can not swap without (effectively)
paging to implement the swapping, if I understand right. If I
understand right, swapped-out means that kernel stacks have
been written out and have to be loaded back in RAM before the
process/threads can even run. (I might not understand.)
If I've got that right, are there distinctions here for
paging that is not part of swapping vs. actual swapping
(and its use of paging)? Saying that something does not
it still could have paging activity that does not include
moving the kernel stacks for the process to backing media?
This is generally the old-school definition, IIRC third year comp
sci,
original BSD definition, which was also the way IBM defined it for
MVS.
(IBM also virtually swapped out address spaces, not written to
DASD, as
a means to deny CPU cycles through the scheduler not given the
chance
to consider the tasks (threads) in the address space).
You can disable swapping by setting vm.swap_enabled=0.
At times I have trouble interpreting when wording goes back
and forth between swapping and paging, both for the intended
meaning and for the technical implications.
The advice I was recently given to revert to the old behavior
  sysctl vm.pageout_update_period=0
I've been using it on a couple systems here for a few days
now, and so
far results are promising, I am no longer seeing gratuitous
swapfile
usage on systems that have so much free physical ram that
they should
never need to page anything out. I haven't yet pushed one of
those
systems hard enough to check what happens when they do need
to start
proactively paging out inactive memory due to shortages -- it
could be
that turning off the new behavior has downsides for some
workloads.
===
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com
( dsl-only.net went
away in early 2018-Mar)
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
To unsubscribe, send any mail to
--
Cheers,
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
sd.org"
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
.org"
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